Winter Tyres choice and rotation

Hello all,
I've done a search on winter tyres and there seems to be more questions than answers.
There is even one link to a demo on indoor ski slope 4x4 compared to 4x2 winter and summer etc. (that I can not access btw)
Then clearly tyres are your point of contact and much more important than 4x4 ... both is that much better
Getting moving on a slope is one issue but stopping in control is MORE important.
I live in the French alpes and have been using winter / summer tyre rotation on multiple cars, twingo / clio sport/ espace 4 and now a cali T6 2019 4x4 DGS 198
Then my advice would be ....
1. get winter tyres if you're going to spend any significant time in or near snow .. chains are a life saver ... but invariably they get fitted when it's too late
1.1 mixed season - Michelin cross-climate are a good alternative if your an occasional visitor
2. tyre depth for winter >> tyre tread depth for summer I would say 4mm min for winter (2mm for summer)
3. keep used winter tyres (<4mm) for use in summer months
4. I noticed my new tyres (Michelin Agilis) have 8mm of tread impressive compared to my clio which has 6mm when new
5. Get a good brand (Michelin/Continental/Hankook etc.) ... compare with the cost of driving off the road ONE time !!
6. GET FOUR tyres ..... think about stopping, not starting ... I have a spare set of wheels for each car!!
7. Wheel rotation ..... generally I only buy TWO new tyres each year, the part worn tyres go on the back and new ones on the front ... HOWEVER ... with a van... it's not the same beast as a twingo.... at nearly 3 tons you have to focus on stopping stopping stopping before that stone wall or corner or .... THEN .... I am rethinking.... Is it better to have the new tyres on the back.... it's pretty alarming when the back wants to over-take the front and with the 4x4 the back will still push you up that hill ...... ANY COMMENTS ???
8. Tyre pressure ..... generally stay with normal pressure ~3.7 bars ..... you can drop air on the side of the road if you where is difficulty .. I never did that.
9. BTW, it's now the LAW to have winter tyres in the alpes in the winter.... previously it was strongly advised and only enforced when the roads where clearly very bad.

With a 4motion it is generally recommended to have the 4 tires of similar wear, to prevent the Aldex from reacting to the difference in rotational speed. For this reason I reverse the front/rear tires at each summer/winter change. But some users here on the site notice little difference in wear between the front and the back of the 4motion, even when not reversing. Either way, this leads to changing all 4 tires at once, and the question of whether the best tires should be mounted on the front or the rear no longer arises.

agree with all that you've said ... but even with the best tyres - Always learn to drive to the conditions. Physics is stronger than your logic.

On point #7, as long as the tread is legal, the front/back does not matter. with a 4MO I would still want the new tyres on front as then I have a chance of having better steering control to get out of a stick situation.

Always a proponent of separate Summer and Winter tyres if affordable.

Deeper treads should be on the rear.

Ch1pbutty said:

Deeper treads should be on the rear.

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2WD - yes

4WD, I would prefer the front provided all tyres are within the legal limit.

Tyre widths ...... I noticed someone running 275/35R20 with winter tyres ..... clearly there is a look issue here ..... lowered and sport orientated .. at least for the look. I would discourage that approach for snow .... thinner tyres... then 215/60/17 means you get more pressure, then more likely to cut through snow than surf on top of it!!
running all year .... well as I indicated above ..... I use winter tyres worn to <4mm in summer on long motorway runs or local no issues. since no good for the next winter anyways.

kurienp said:

2WD - yes

4WD, I would prefer the front provided all tyres are within the legal limit.

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why the difference .... 4WD or 2WD the stopping issue is the same

wayne1965xxxx said:

why the difference .... 4WD or 2WD the stopping issue is the same

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If you lose control/skid under heavy braking..Sliding back end can have worse consequences than v sliding on the the front. Worst case is that you lose control, vehicle spins and hits oncoming traffic sideways or overturns. Better to have deeper tread on the rear. 4x4 is heavier by design so has more weight to stop. 4x4 treads should ideally be equal tread depth all round to reduce wear on the drivetrain (unless it’s an EV, then it doesn’t really matter).

Ch1pbutty said:

If you lose control/skid under heavy braking..Sliding back end can have worse consequences than v sliding on the the front. Worst case is that you lose control, vehicle spins and hits oncoming traffic sideways or overturns. Better to have deeper tread on the rear. 4x4 is heavier by design so has more weight to stop. 4x4 treads should ideally be equal tread depth all round to reduce wear on the drivetrain (unless it’s an EV, then it doesn’t really matter).

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but in your first comment you said "I would prefer the front" now you say "Better to have deeper tread on the rear" where I would tend to agree .... Did I miss something ??
..... THEN "reduce wear on the drivetrain" surely this is the job of the differentials ... to manage different wheel speeds ... and honestly the delta of 4mm tread on a wheel 17 inch + 215/60% =691mm <0.6%

Even on a front wheel drive the better tread/ grip should always be on the back. Surprisingly there are many tyre fitters that don’t know this!

Regarding chains, I am wondering about some for occasional use in the Cairngorms…… any advice anyone? Or do the roads just get cleared anyway?

wayne1965xxxx said:

but in your first comment you said "I would prefer the front" now you say "Better to have deeper tread on the rear" where I would tend to agree .... Did I miss something ??
..... THEN "reduce wear on the drivetrain" surely this is the job of the differentials ... to manage different wheel speeds ... and honestly the delta of 4mm tread on a wheel 17 inch + 215/60% =691mm <0.6%

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sorry I am mixing up replies from with Ch1pbutty with kurienp

chockswahay said:

Even on a front wheel drive the better tread/ grip should always be on the back. Surprisingly there are many tyre fitters that don’t know this!

Regarding chains, I am wondering about some for occasional use in the Cairngorms…… any advice anyone? Or do the roads just get cleared anyway?

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chains are always nice in the boot to get you out of trouble (been pushing your luck) ... especially if you are running on summer tyres ...... mostly not required when you fit good winter tyres

On two points I would allow myself to improve if you may:
1 - Winter tyres are not just for snow. They have a different compound , softer, and their benefit, their improved grip begins already at temperatures below 8° C. it doesn't have to be snow
3 - sorry, but totally wrong advice. Because of what I just said in point 1 above, the other side of the coin is that summer tyres are much better, have much more grip in summer compared to winter tires.
A study from the german ADAC concluded there is a worsening of 16% in the brake distance on dry surface in summer using winter tyres instead of summer tyres. There must be a reason why they are called "summer" and "winter", regardless of their thread.

The title of the thread mention "ROTATION"., very cleverly. The exact purpose of rotation is to ensure even thread consumption between front and rear, so the issue of which tire with which thread in front or in the rear doesn't even exists. Even thread front/rear right/left is the best set up.

Calimili said:

On two points I would allow myself to improve if you may:
1 - Winter tyres are not just for snow. They have a different compound , softer, and their benefit, their improved grip begins already at temperatures below 8° C. it doesn't have to be snow
3 - sorry, but totally wrong advice. Because of what I just said in point 1 above, the other side of the coin is that summer tyres are much better, have much more grip in summer compared to winter tires.
A study from the german ADAC concluded there is a worsening of 16% in the brake distance on dry surface in summer using winter tyres instead of summer tyres. There must be a reason why they are called "summer" and "winter", regardless of their thread.

The title of the thread mention "ROTATION"., very cleverly. The exact purpose of rotation is to ensure even thread consumption between front and rear, so the issue of which tire with which thread in front or in the rear doesn't even exists. Even thread front/rear right/left is the best set up.

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+ All Seasons are ‘Jack of all trades, master of none’…but a good compromise.

Calimili said:

On two points I would allow myself to improve if you may:
1 - Winter tyres are not just for snow. They have a different compound , softer, and their benefit, their improved grip begins already at temperatures below 8° C. it doesn't have to be snow
3 - sorry, but totally wrong advice. Because of what I just said in point 1 above, the other side of the coin is that summer tyres are much better, have much more grip in summer compared to winter tires.
A study from the german ADAC concluded there is a worsening of 16% in the brake distance on dry surface in summer using winter tyres instead of summer tyres. There must be a reason why they are called "summer" and "winter", regardless of their thread.

The title of the thread mention "ROTATION"., very cleverly. The exact purpose of rotation is to ensure even thread consumption between front and rear, so the issue of which tire with which thread in front or in the rear doesn't even exists. Even thread front/rear right/left is the best set up.

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ROTATION ..... meaning rotation of wheels front to back and summer to winter according to tyre wear and conditions.
Using winter tyres in summer: what ever the ADAC test says .... I would rather use my part worn winter tyres (obviously still legal) in the summer (and take the very small risk) than to use them in the next winter. I do not drive my California like I drive my Clio sport There's a pretty good margin in the summer months (compared to winter)

Ch1pbutty said:

+ All Seasons are ‘Jack of all trades, master of none’…but a good compromise.

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Michelin CrossClimate are a good jack of all trades ..... worked very well on my Renault grand espace

Ch1pbutty said:

+ All Seasons are ‘Jack of all trades, master of none’…but a good compromise.

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Again it depends where you live. In England winters are not as cold as somewhere else in europe, and All Seasons do make perfect sense.

General consensus seems to be in line with my thoughts ..... Put the new tyres on the back

wayne1965xxxx said:

ROTATION ..... meaning rotation of wheels front to back and summer to winter according to tyre wear and conditions.
Using winter tyres in summer: what ever the ADAC test says .... I would rather use my part worn winter tyres (obviously still legal) in the summer (and take the very small risk) than to use them in the next winter. I do not drive my California like I drive my Clio sport There's a pretty good margin in the summer months (compared to winter)

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You can of course drive legally whatever tires you want, but calling "drive winter tyres in summer" a piece of good advice is maybe not entirely correct.
If you google "using winter tires in summer" there are a lot of articles not from the ADAC if you don't like it, but they all come to the same conclusion:" it is not advisable to drive on winter tyres in summer.

wayne1965xxxx said:

General consensus seems to be in line with my thoughts ..... Put the new tyres on the back

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Just to consider a worst case scenario, you have almost bald tyres all round. Your journey involves steep snowy descents with lots of bends.
You have two new tyres, still want them on the rear?

sidepod said:

Just to consider a worst case scenario, you have almost bald tyres all round. Your journey involves steep snowy descents with lots of bends.
You have two new tyres, still want them on the rear?

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Think about it ..... almost bald tyres steep snowy road = stay at home !!
almost bald = replace the whole set
50% used \= replace

Calimili said:

You can of course drive legally whatever tires you want, but calling "drive winter tyres in summer" a piece of good advice is maybe not entirely correct.
If you google "using winter tires in summer" there are a lot of articles not from the ADAC if you don't like it, but they all come to the same conclusion:" it is not advisable to drive on winter tyres in summer.

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what do you do with your 50% used winter tyres ??
throw them away ??

wayne1965xxxx said:

Think about it ..... almost bald tyres steep snowy road = stay at home !!
almost bald = replace the whole set
50% used \= replace

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Arrggghhh I was questioning the “more tread on the rear” thing!

Deeper tread on the front for me in winter, always - aquaplaning is worse when it affects the front ... (but then I'm happy to have a sliding rear, at least on the rally car..)..

wayne1965xxxx said:

what do you do with your 50% used winter tyres ??
throw them away ??

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Germany - winter tyres have a legal minimum of 4mm which is why they are or were shipped here for resale at that wear level..