T 8 CALIFORNIA.

SusiBus · Jul 22, 2022

As there is already a PHEV T7 Multivan, surely the next California must be called the T8.

Some converting conversion companies are looking into converting the long wheel base ID.Buzz, when it arrives, into a camper. Might it be a smaller camper, like the Mazda Bongo because of the load capacity.

Apparently some of the conversion companies are holding back on doing long-term orders for VW Transporters on which to base their conversions (do they know something?) and are watching the situation with the development of the all-electric Ford Transit which apparently is to be built in Turkey. So is it a possibility that the EV platform could be built in Turkey, then transported back to the existing factories in Germany to have a California body built on it? If it's built in Turkey, I can just see it losing some of its street cred.

couplands · Jul 22, 2022

I haven't seen anything about a T8, but did watch the Jerba camper van video where they take a look at what it would involve to convert an ID.Buzz. I think the conclusion is that they'd need to scale down their units by about 15% to fit in the ID.Buzz.

I think doing a build like the Caddy California would be a great option though...

Ch1pbutty · Jul 22, 2022

SusiBus said:
As there is already a PHEV T7 Multivan, surely the next California must be called the T8.

Some converting conversion companies are looking into converting the long wheel base ID.Buzz, when it arrives, into a camper. Might it be a smaller camper, like the Mazda Bongo because of the load capacity.

Apparently some of the conversion companies are holding back on doing long-term orders for VW Transporters on which to base their conversions (do they know something?) and are watching the situation with the development of the all-electric Ford Transit which apparently is to be built in Turkey. So is it a possibility that the EV platform could be built in Turkey, then transported back to the existing factories in Germany to have a California body built on it? If it's built in Turkey, I can just see it losing some of its street cred.

Ford & VW have shared EV Development costs for many years now.

Place of build is irrevelant provided good quality control is in place. Potentially avoid some of the labour issues experienced in Germany; Turkey / Black Sea is normally a good shipping hub (Ukraine war excluded as bit of no go at the moment due to additonal war risk premium, risk to crew & the odd rogue sea mine). Turkey might be cheaper and car manufacturers always seeking to reduce cost / maximise profit. Be interesting to see what happens.

...maybe Ford with make a LWB Electric Nugget.

WelshGas · Jul 22, 2022

Question?
With modern manufacturing, global supply chains and just in time deliveries, What do VW actually manufacture in house?
Take for example the T6.1. What elements are actually made, in house, by VW from scratch?

I know they assemble components but actually many components are made by other listed companies, eg: egr valves, alternators, brakes, habitation units, Camping Control Panel, Infotainment systems , wiring looms etc. The list is endless. Similarly with many manufacturers. So the fact that the base chassis might be made on a production line together with a Ford equivalent becomes immaterial.
Most vehicle "manufacturers " are just assembly companies now. They specialise in assembly rather than manufacturing.

Corradobrit · Jul 22, 2022

WelshGas said:
Question?
With modern manufacturing, global supply chains and just in time deliveries, What do VW actually manufacture in house?
Take for example the T6.1. What elements are actually made, in house, by VW from scratch?

I know they assemble components but actually many components are made by other listed companies, eg: egr valves, alternators, brakes, habitation units, Camping Control Panel, Infotainment systems , wiring looms etc. The list is endless. Similarly with many manufacturers. So the fact that the base chassis might be made on a production line together with a Ford equivalent becomes immaterial.
Most vehicle "manufacturers " are just assembly companies now. They specialise in assembly rather than manufacturing.

Depends how the term to manufacture is determined. They manufacture the body panels and I think the habitation units are made by VW inhouse and not outsourced ie to Westfalia. I would also consider the engine and transmission to be manufactured in house too. A lot of the ancilliary components eg towbars and electronic components are 3rd party manufactured.

WelshGas · Jul 22, 2022

Corradobrit said:
Depends how the term to manufacture is determined. They manufacture the body panels and I think the habitation units are made by VW inhouse and not outsourced ie to Westfalia. I would also consider the engine and transmission to be manufactured in house too. A lot of the ancilliary components eg towbars and electronic components are 3rd party manufactured.

I think you would be surprised at what components VW buy in, even with regards to the engine and drive trains. There are a lot of components shared across different manufacturers that we don't know about. Eg: Hydraulic roof sensors same as used by BMW, alternators, fuel injectors, fuel pumps and the list goes on. So having a bare bone chassis common with Ford should be no big deal.

Borris · Jul 22, 2022

To make a comparable California version of any future all electric VW/Ford van viable then the manufacturers clearly have a difficult balancing act to solve. It seems to me that any such camper van would need a useful range of say 300 miles in order to be worth considering, which would necessitate a very large battery pack indeed. If said van is then to have a payload that's fit for purpose for both conversion and practical everyday use whilst maintaining that range then it will, given the current battery technology, end up being very heavy indeed. The heavier it becomes the more power it will need, the bigger the battery.

Unless future battery packs become much lighter or both the van and habitation fittings are made predominately from much lighter composite materials, I can't see how a T8 California will appear anytime soon, if at all.

Is this currently an example of deminishing returns?

SusiBus · Jul 22, 2022

I seem to remember reading that the next generation of batteries under development at the gigafactory at Hefer City in China, where VW are investing $164 million by 2025, along with Tesla, are maybe half the weight with much greater range. Win, win, possibly!
VW are also spending $20 billion on its own batteries to be manufactured at factories at Salzgitter and Lower Saxony in Germany. Currently they are contracted to have batteries manufactured by Samsung and CATL in South Korea. So the ID Buzz we've just ordered is already out of date before we get it. Things are moving fast!

sidepod · Jul 22, 2022

Currently working on an electric commercial vehicle. I wouldn't hold your breath for any of the above! :mute

Ch1pbutty · Jul 22, 2022

SusiBus said:
I seem to remember reading that the next generation of batteries under development at the gigafactory at Hefer City in China, where VW are investing $164 million by 2025, along with Tesla, are maybe half the weight with much greater range. Win, win, possibly!
VW are also spending $20 billion on its own batteries to be manufactured at factories at Salzgitter and Lower Saxony in Germany. Currently they are contracted to have batteries manufactured by Samsung and CATL in South Korea. So the ID Buzz we've just ordered is already out of date before we get it. Things are moving fast!

Makes sense as VW can turn the old batteries into new. They already have a recycling centre in Salzgitter.

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SusiBus · Jul 22, 2022

Why did it come up saying 'You are ignoring content by this member' ? I wouldn't ignore you Sidepod, just because I think you used to drive past our house every day to work in Watford and not say hello. Anyway good news to hear we are not buying an obsolete vehicle with the Buzz.

andyinluton · Jul 22, 2022

Borris said:
It seems to me that any such camper van would need a useful range of say 300 miles in order to be worth considering, which would necessitate a very large battery pack indeed. If said van is then to have a payload that's fit for purpose for both conversion and practical everyday use whilst maintaining that range then it will, given the current battery technology, end up being very heavy indeed.

Forget about it being a camper, there is a need to produce light commercial vehicles ie transporter size with range, weight and volume capability to match the existing diesel vehicles. Once they can produce that, converting it to a camper is a secondary operation.

Something that will help is that since 2018 all car driving license holders have been able to drive vehicles weighing up to 4.25tnnes if they are alternatively fuelled.

That gives a useful approx 1.2 tonnes extra for the batteries on a transporter.
Raise the transporter suspension 100mm & that gives you about 1m3 of space under a false floor without impacting on interior space.

A 85kwh Tesla battery weighs in at 416kg and has a volume of 0.43m3

So 2x Tesla battery packs theoretically fit & as a Tesla model x weighs something like 2.5tnnes I would guess that a heavier less aerodynamic van with twice the batteries should get at least a similar range.

All we need to do now is raise all height barriers to 2.1m & we are sorted.

Don't really know why VW are taking so long.........

sidepod · Jul 22, 2022

SusiBus said:
Why did it come up saying 'You are ignoring content by this member' ? I wouldn't ignore you Sidepod, just because I think you used to drive past our house every day to work in Watford and not say hello. Anyway good news to hear we are not buying an obsolete vehicle with the Buzz.

? Never been to Watford in my life :Iamsorry

Borris · Jul 22, 2022

andyinluton said:
Forget about it being a camper, there is a need to produce light commercial vehicles ie transporter size with range, weight and volume capability to match the existing diesel vehicles. Once they can produce that, converting it to a camper is a secondary operation.

Something that will help is that since 2018 all car driving license holders have been able to drive vehicles weighing up to 4.25tnnes if they are alternatively fuelled.

That gives a useful approx 1.2 tonnes extra for the batteries on a transporter.
Raise the transporter suspension 100mm & that gives you about 1m3 of space under a false floor without impacting on interior space.

A 85kwh Tesla battery weighs in at 416kg and has a volume of 0.43m3

So 2x Tesla battery packs theoretically fit & as a Tesla model x weighs something like 2.5tnnes I would guess that a heavier less aerodynamic van with twice the batteries should get at least a similar range.

All we need to do now is raise all height barriers to 2.1m & we are sorted.

Don't really know why VW are taking so long.........

I agree that manufacturers need to produce viable commercial EVs first.

Given current battery technology something the size of the current California with a decent range looks to be out of the question for the foreseeable future. Unless battery tech, meaning power output, weight and size, changes substantially, a much bigger heavier van would need to form the base vehicle for any future Cali. I'm not sure whether that would appeal to the current customer base.

If such a vehicle did employ 2 x Tesla batteries then I dread to think what the cost would be. Unless the cost of such power packs comes down drastically I can't see the business world being that enthusiastic either. I imagine that there will be a massive price differential between such a vehicle and a current generation light diesel commercial.

SusiBus · Jul 23, 2022

andyinluton.
That's interesting about the change in licensing since 2018. The things you learn via the forum, amazing.
I've just read that the new all electric Ford Transit has a WLTP of 166 to196 miles. So that's surely a non starter.

andyinluton · Jul 23, 2022

SusiBus said:
andyinluton.
That's interesting about the change in licensing since 2018. The things you learn via the forum, amazing.
I've just read that the new all electric Ford Transit has a WLTP of 166 to196 miles. So that's surely a non starter.

It not there yet, but even a couple of years ago a range of 196 would have been unthinkable.

Paul G - 2022 Ocean · Jul 24, 2022

I agree with all the comments above about LCV’s being the priority before considering an EV campervan. But if the next EV California /Transporter platform is going to be a VW/Ford partnership then VW will probably lose their market position amongst the van-life world.

T 8 CALIFORNIA.

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